Mimi M.:
Welcome to the Lyme 360 podcast for all things related to Lyme disease and other chronic illnesses. I'm Mimi MacLean, mama of five, founder of Lyme 360, and a fellow Lyme warrior. Tune in each week to hear from doctors, health practitioners, and experts to learn about their treatments, struggles, and triumphs to help you on your healing journey. I'm here to heal with you.

Mimi M.:
Before we get started with the podcast, I wanted to talk to you about what is in your personal care products and cosmetics. What you put on your skin, which is your largest organ, is just as important as what you consume. Your body immediately absorbs what is on the skin, but did you know that there is limited regulation in the personal care industry? And the last law that was passed was 1938. So the chemicals and ingredients in your products have not been tested for human safety.

Mimi M.:
So for those of you struggling with your health, it is super important to use clean products. Eight years ago, I started using Beautycounter for my cosmetics and personal care products. They are the leaders in clean, safer products that work. Beautycounter has done the research and taken the guesswork out of what is safe. Go to lyme360.com/beautycounter to learn more. Reach out to me at mimi@lyme360.com if you want to learn more or find out what my favorite products are.

Mimi M.:
Hi. Welcome back to the Lyme 360 podcast. This is your host, Mimi MacLean, and today I have on Dr. Justine Lemos and she is an Ayurvedic guru. She also uses Ayurvedic astrology, meditation, mantra, mudra, yoga, and much more. She loves to harness ancient wisdom systems to them applicable to our modern lives, igniting this special magic of a soul aligned with its true purpose to heal.

Mimi M.:
To get my Detox for Lyme checklist, go to lyme360.com/detoxchecklist. 

Mimi M.:
Dr. Justine, thank you so much for coming on today. I am so grateful and I would love just to start out by talking about, I know you had chronic pain when you were 15 with your shoulder, and you were healed through the practice that you now are teaching, and I would love to just dive into that. Like did you ever figure out what was the cause of that and how you healed that on that journey?

Dr. Justine L.:
Wow. I've never been that specific question. So I just really want to thank you for that, and you know, it was really like almost 15 years of extreme, like extreme pain. Like it would come and go and come and go. From a western medical perspective, I was never given a satisfying story about what it was and how it came to be. I'll just say that. However, from the perspective of Ayurveda, I understand the causative factors of how it came to be, what it was in the body, and then how it left the body, or I was able to move it through and out of the body. So, yes and no, I guess is the answer, and I'm happy to tell you about what those causative factors were from an Ayurvedic perspective, and then what was able to cause the shift from that same perspective.

Mimi M.:
Yeah. I guess what piqued my interest is because one of my underlying major symptoms of Lyme has been this chronic shoulder pain. 

Dr. Justine L.:
Oh wow. 

Mimi M.:
And it's the same. That's when I read it, I was like, "Oh, that's like what I have." It comes and goes. I mean, there was a point where like, it was a year I couldn't lift my shoulder.

Dr. Justine L.:
Yeah, yeah-

Mimi M.:
Above my head-

Dr. Justine L.:
Not above your head, right?

Mimi M.:
And it hurt just to get dressed or it hurt just to hand something to somebody, or to drive my car, I'd be in pain, driving my kids, you know, and maybe it was the Lyme. Maybe it was any of the other co-factors or anything else I was dealing with, inflammation. So I just was like, if you were like, "Oh no, it was Lyme," or if it was just inflammation or-

Dr. Justine L.:
Not Lyme specifically. Like I've never been diagnosed with that. I don't think that I have contracted Lyme, and actually from an Ayurvedic perspective, it was not inflammation. From this kind of western notion of the body, and even alternative western notions of the body, people often assume that they have "inflammation" when actually, the causative factors for chronic pain are more likely to be a combination of tissue dryness, nervous system aggravation, which causes us to experience pain, and then metabolic waste or what we call like "gunk factor," which lodges itself in certain parts of the body. Let me give you an example. 

Dr. Justine L.:
Someone who is experiencing fibromyalgia, from a western perspective, which is just kind of like a label; it doesn't really tell us anything about it except for the fact that they're experiencing extreme pain throughout their body. It doesn't tell us why it came to be. It doesn't tell us how to alleviate it. It just is kind of the stamp. From an Ayurvedic perspective, and not to be technical, in essence, the nervous system has lodged itself in the muscle tissues. What we call "vata dosha" has lodged itself at the level of mamsa dhatu. So it's just too much information for the nervous system, and so the nervous system begins to translate sitting on a chair as incredibly, incredibly painful.

Dr. Justine L.:
So for me personally, it was what we call a "vata dosha imbalance," an imbalance where the body had become too light and too dry that lodged itself specifically in the shoulders, which was aggravated by a repetitive movement pattern that needed to be shifted, and then psychologically and emotionally, shoulder pain, which we frequently find in women specifically, has to do mentally and emotionally with shouldering too much of a burden, taking on too much, and we often find it in women and/or mothers who are carrying too heavy of a load psychologically and extending too much energy out from their heart center, kind of psychosomatically. That said, like the underlying issue was not one of inflammation, was not an itis. It was actually a dryness and an emaciation of the tissues, right?

Mimi M.:
I love that, because it's true. It's like, I feel like maybe my pain comes when I'm more stressed.

Dr. Justine L.:
Yeah, yeah-

Mimi M.:
And I feel like, you know, I have to do too much and everyone's expecting too much and everything's falling on my shoulders. 

Dr. Justine L.:
Yep, yep-

Mimi M.:
That's a good metaphor.

Dr. Justine L.:
Absolutely, and actually stress itself is vata dosha. It's like air and ether. It accumulates in the nervous system, and in Ayurveda, like increases like. So probably, your shoulder pain, I'm just, you know, armchair assessing right now, it's probably worse. It is likely to be worse if it's cold and dry outside, that combination of cold and dry and/or like going to rain, and/or it is probably worse in the week before menstruation and those aggravating factors, and when they're stress, because that's making the nervous system aggravated. Actually, most Lymes disease, and I'm not an expert in Lymes; I've seen a few cases come through my practice, my clinical practice, and then I've also seen some cases, studied some cases, almost always Lymes, in addition to many other things, has a strong element of vata dosha aggravation. So the nervous system is already really aggravated, and then how your particular body is experiencing it is in this shoulder pain, or one way that it's experiencing it is in the shoulder pain.

Mimi M.:
Right. That's right. So can you tell, you know, that's why I wanted to talk to you. I really haven't had anybody come on and talk about Ayurvedic, "vay-dick?"

Dr. Justine L.:
So "Ayurveda" is the science of life, "ayur" meaning "life," "veda" meaning science, and then like if we talk about "Ayurvedic" herbs or "Ayurvedic" diet, like that. So "Ayurveda" and "Ayurvedic." Yeah.

Mimi M.:
Yeah. Ayurvedic, you know, I think it really helps, I have used it on my journey with my Lyme. I have gone to a couple of spas, you know, places where for a week where you eat, and you've had supplements and they do a lot of treatments like the oil and, very, very soothing and grounding. So can you talk a little bit just about the whole practice in general if anybody hasn't heard about it? 

Dr. Justine L.:
Absolutely-

Mimi M.:
And why it does, it doesn't matter if you're specific for Lyme or not, because it does help the whole body.

Dr. Justine L.:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So "Ayurveda," "ayur" meaning "life," "veda" meaning science is a systematic approach to understanding all aspects of the life, including the physical body, including the mental body, including the psychological, including the energetic, the holistic paradigm and system for looking at the body mind spirit in and out of balance that has its origin in ancient India around 5,000 years ago, and it really is a science that emerged out of a particular culture and time but has this application for modern living humans anywhere.

Dr. Justine L.:
Specifically, Ayurveda is not just a dietary system. It's not just eating Indian food or food from that has its origins in South Asia. It is this systematic approach to understanding how the body is in balance and how it may be falling out of balance, and then taking remedial measures to bring the body back into balance. That can be everything from food, herbs, oil treatments like you were describing that can get super luxurious, lifestyle changes, simple lifestyle changes, meditation, work on the subtle centers or the chakras. There's just, everything in essence becomes medicine, but we need to know which medicine to use at one time. So that's what Ayurveda that is. Yeah.

Mimi M.:
That's great. You had mentioned simple life changes. Can you name a couple?

Dr. Justine L.:
Surely. So Ayurveda teaches us that there are three main what we call "doshas," which are not just like, I have this pet peeve where people like do a quiz online and then they use that as a banner of their identity in the same way that people are like, "I'm a Cancer." So this means all of this about me in this essential-ized and fixed way, and that's really devalues the system. At any rate, there are three main what we call "doshas." "Dosha" means actually "defect," and the doshas are like the elements in that "vata dosha" is like air and ether, so it's very light and dry. Pitta dosha is like fire with a little bit of water. So it's very hot, a little bit pungent, and a little bit sweaty. You know, it's like damp, humid moisture, a humid heat, and then kapha dosha is like earth and water. So it's very heavy and very cold and very stable.

Dr. Justine L.:
Each one of us has these doshas in a particular ratio in our body and in our mind that is unique to us. However, because of lifestyle choices and because of free will, we begin to accumulate doshas, and because of perhaps contracting a particular illness that has long-term effect, like it's not always free will or choice that pushes us out of balance, right? I shouldn't just say that it's because of bad choices, right, that will begin to accumulate one of these doshas. When these doshas accumulate, that's when we begin to see the manifestations of symptoms in the body, a pimple coming out, a fever in the body, joint pain, all of these different things. Additionally, Ayurveda tells us that the day itself goes through the cycle of these doshas, and so does the year. 

Dr. Justine L.:
So we can learn to work with these cycles. For example, at 10:00 PM, the body makes a significant shift from a kapha dosha cycle, which is very soothing, and you know, it's very heavy, and at around 10:00 PM, this is with the sun. So it's not with a clock dial. It's like a few hours after sunset. The body goes into a pitta dosha cycle, which is fire, and this is when people frequently get a midnight snack and a second wind, and then they stay up watching TV, pushing against their body's natural rhythm. So if someone is going to bed chronically late, I'll suggest a lifestyle change or simple alteration that they're actually going to sleep during that kapha dosha time and working with the cycles of nature, instead of getting pumped up by that second wind, taking the midnight snack, and then staying up through half of the night, which continues and furthers their imbalance. So it can be very, very simple, little tiny tweaks that we make to the life that can have these profound shifts.

Mimi M.:
That's interesting because last night I was so tired. I was like, "I'm going to go bed," and then my kids were like, "We're going to start a movie," and my kids aren't usually home from school and they were there. I was like, "Okay, I'll sit with you." The next thing I know, it was like 11:30 and I was like wired and I was like, "Wait. Three hours ago I couldn't even keep my eyes open," and now I can't even get back to sleep. So it's funny because maybe that's what you're talking about. Just getting-

Dr. Justine L.:
That's absolutely, no, no, no. It is what I'm talking about. It's exactly right. The body getting into that like second wind and then pitta dosha accumulates in the eyes, like in the mind, in the energy of the liver. We have that like snack and all of a sudden we're like "bing," and we can't fall asleep until much, much, much later.

Mimi M.:
Right. So when you have clients come to you, you know, obviously you're testing to see what's going on with them. How do you test them? I can't remember how, the person I went to, how she tested me, if it was like my tongue or my pulse.

Dr. Justine L.:
Absolutely. So I'm trained in all the classical forms of assessment in Ayurveda. These days, and because of my shows on Gaia TV, you know, like 90% of my clientele is remote, which creates certain things that we do, but methods of assessment that we look at include facial markers and assessment of what's happening in the face. Tongue, similar to what a Chinese medical practitioner looks at. We also use the voice and certain qualities in the voice that come through that tell us a lot about what is going on in the dosha. So there's this whole method of voice assessment. 

Dr. Justine L.:
One of the primary methods that we use is pulse analysis, and this is different than like counting the heartbeats per minute or something like that. There's actually seven different layers to the pulse that we're looking at, much as a acupuncturist might do. Now of course, when we're meeting virtually, this can create some obstacles. However, there is this ancient method, which I've been trained in, very interesting in the what we call "the messenger pulse," which was where in ancient India, you know, like you'd have to walk, right? And so a [vaidja 00:16:42], an Ayurvedic doctor, would be in one village and there'd be somebody three villages over, maybe it's a day or two walk, who would be sick. That vaidja, that doctor, he or she, usually he, wouldn't want to walk all that way or they would be busy in their own village. So they'd send their assistant out to go take that person's pulse. The assistant would come back and the doctor, the vaidja would feel the assistant's pulses to feel what qualities they had brought with them from that person from afar. 

Dr. Justine L.:
So anyhow, we've developed, it sounds a little spacey, but it actually is, it's really, we've developed methods that I've learned, or Ayurvedic doctors in the modern world, my mentors, have developed methods for doing that when we're working online with someone. That said, by the time I get to the pulse, just through meeting with someone, I already really have a good idea of what I'm going to find in the pulse, and then the final way that I use, which most Ayurvedic practitioners do not use this, but I'm trained in something called [Jyotisha 00:17:47], or Vedic astrology, which provides a blueprint of our karma that we come into this lifetime to explore. So I always look not for doing a full reading, but looking at it in terms of what's happening in the doshas. Where are the life markers? What changes are these people going through? When will more healing energy come in so that we can harness that kind of as this really big picture mode of assessment that I personally used. 

Dr. Justine L.:
So, we have all of these different ways of assessing what is happening in that unique person's body at that time, which is very different from another perspective. I mean, we never just are like, "Oh, you have this. Here, take a bunch of these tinctures," because this in my mind fits with that idea of what we're labeling that in that way, right?

Mimi M.:
It's interesting: when I went to this Ayurvedic spa in Los Angeles, she had sent me on two other, like outside people I went to go see, and both times it was the most interesting experience. One gentleman, he, I don't know if it was like reading like what you were just talking about, like your numbers or your astrology. It was something I've never really experienced before, but all I know is I came out and he had me buy, he picked this ring-

Dr. Justine L.:
Yep. It was Jyotisha. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was Vedic astrology, and he gave you a specific remedy and told you where to wear it and-

Mimi M.:
Yes-

Dr. Justine L.:
What type of, yeah, absolutely.

Mimi M.:
Open. So that's why I wear this.

Dr. Justine L.:
Yeah. 

Mimi M.:
This ring, because I, you know, to open up your, I don't even know what I was opening up, and ever since then, I kind of feel this, you know, this guiding power from it.

Dr. Justine L.:
Beautiful.

Mimi M.:
So I wear that, and then the other thing that she had me do was I went to this like Chinese healer who was able to talk to the afterlife a little bit, like she was able to get, I mean she gave me this powder out of a thin air. She rubbed her hands, and literally she gave me this powder that I had to drink, but she was, you know, it's funny when you're sick, you're kind of willing to do anything and everything.

Dr. Justine L.:
Anything. Absolutely, yeah.

Mimi M.:
So I came home, I said to my husband like, "Okay, I wish I videotaped this because no one would ever believe this, but this woman who doesn't even speak English, I walked in, I didn't say anything, and she knew immediately what was going on, and she kind of came up with this powder out of her hand that I had to drink," and I had to do this whole ritual because my sister had just passed. She said that my sister was stuck between the two lives and she was really, because she was mentally handicapped. So she was getting really upset that she didn't know where she was and she couldn't find my dad, and she was kind of just stuck in this after world, like hadn't gone to the next world, and she's like, "You're the only one she feels like who will find her. That's where your pain is coming from."

Mimi M.:
So I had to do this whole process and go get some fruits and flowers, and I did it. Went back to the Ayurvedic place and we had this whole ritual for her to go to the next world. It was interesting. I've [inaudible 00:20:52] some great creative, you know, unusual situations from going to them.

Dr. Justine L.:
Yeah, amazing.

Mimi M.:
So do you do things like that too where you work with people or is that-

Dr. Justine L.:
So I do Vedic astrology and then off for specific remedies from that if I see something really important emerging from the chart, and that could be gemstones, it could be mantra, it could be particular meditations. It could be particular acts, like acts of service, you know, or things that just really are going to help that person express the full potential of who they are, in essence. 

Dr. Justine L.:
I do facilitate traditional fire ceremonies, what are called [Yanjas 00:21:39] for our clients, either with them or just on behalf of them, but usually I will also then recommend what we call "Yanjas," or fire ceremonies, done by priests in India, who specifically do that work for people where you have nine days of a group of priests just chanting and making offerings for you over and over again. This is kind of the remedy we use when we see something in the chart that's like, "Oh, this is a big karmic lesson. This is not just," you know, there are different levels of things that are happening at all time, and it's not always that we see that kind of level of needing that remedy, but sometimes it's like this really big pattern, and so then those Yanjas can be helpful in shifting and moving that particular karma. 

Mimi M.:
That's great. Now if anybody wants to learn more about Ayurvedic, can you talk about your TV show and your podcast, and do you work with people one-on-one? I see you also do like live streams for yoga.

Dr. Justine L.:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Myself and another Ayurvedic teacher [inaudible 00:22:51] did a whole series of documentaries and teachings and cooking videos and practices that are available on Gaia TV, and actually, I think they're available on Amazon if you have Amazon Prime, I think. I have heard that, that's called Thrive Self-Healing with Ayurveda, and that show is like an amazing introduction to Ayurveda. If you watch all the documentaries, like you learn a lot. I'm really actually, going into the project, I was a little bit like, "How are we going to do this in a way that gives justice to a 5,000 year old tradition and system of knowledge?", but actually how it came out, it's like a really amazing beginners' course in Ayurveda.

Dr. Justine L.:
I work with people one-on-one in my clinical practice online and then also in group programs as well, because that really gives good accountability for people that are looking to make shifts in their health. I have a podcast that is not, well, it is related to Ayurveda, but it's also kind of my performance art, you might say, that's called Third Eye Roll that is about all things yogic and Vedic and [inaudible 00:24:11] rolled into one, their wisdom teachings in essence, but people can find me on my website, which is justinelemos.com, and explore more there.

Mimi M.:
That's great. Thank you. I mean, it's been so helpful, and I do think for anybody who is not getting better from whatever path you're on, this is definitely a path to look at and to explore the deeper software ties together. Like you were saying, the emotional, the physical, the spiritual part, you know, to really kind of look into that, because I found, after seven years of doing this, like if you're not getting better, there's deeper work that needs to be done, and just what is that path or modality that you're choosing to do that deeper work?

Dr. Justine L.:
Absolutely, and the other thing that I see, two things actually, one is that Ayurveda can always be a support and a complement to western forms of treatment, and we might have to like not use certain herbal remedies. I am really like cautious and ethical about using herbal remedies when someone is taking another medication because we don't have peer-reviewed journal articles on the interactions, and I come out of research science. I'm very much want to make sure that we're always safe, et cetera. 

Dr. Justine L.:
The second thing that comes to mind that I just want to share is that when someone comes into my practice and they're suffering, and they're suffering from something that isn't well understood, there is a tendency, and it also goes along with this vata dosha aggravation, which is very much part of Lyme. Very, very much part of Lyme, this nervous system aggravation, stress aggravation, [inaudible 00:26:02]. The tendency for that person is to be seeing eight different alternative practitioners. They're going to the Ayurvedic specialists and they're going to a functional medicinal specialist, and they're going to an acupuncturist, and they're going to a dietician, and they're going to a chiropractor, and it's because they're suffering. It is because they're suffering and they want any way out. 

Dr. Justine L.:
The problem with that, however, is that unless all of those practitioners are really working together as a team, which is rare that you can find that people are actually working together, you've got eight different perspectives all trying to create healing and balance, and it frequently gets to be too many cooks in the kitchen, and it gets to be totally overwhelming for the person, and they don't know what to do because they've been given eight, no, one person is like, "You need to do this rigorous liver cleanse," and the other person is like, "Heal your soul trauma," and the other, and then they get overwhelmed and that overwhelm, which is actually part of Lyme itself from an Ayurvedic perspective, just begins to accumulate and increase more.

Dr. Justine L.:
So, you know, like pick that modality. Find that person or that modality that you trust and then just follow it for a while, and see what healing comes, and then be willing to also reassess in three months, four months, five months. Look back and say, "I am feeling better," or, "I am not feeling better. I need to go in a different direction." So that's just my word of advice-

Mimi M.:
No, it's true, and I look back on my journey. I wish I took better, I didn't take any notes. 

Dr. Justine L.:
Yeah.

Mimi M.:
But I wish I did take notes. You know, either have a journal or something online where I was, even if you can't do it daily, which is a lot, but even if you could do weekly and be like, "Hey, I started this. This is how I feel," rate yourself. Then in three months, review it-

Dr. Justine L.:
Yes, yes-

Mimi M.:
Because it's kind of, you forget how far you've come or if you haven't improved.

Dr. Justine L.:
Absolutely, and people all the time do this. If our knee is hurting, we notice our knee. When our knee stops hurting, it's like we don't even remember that our knee was hurting before because it's not in the consciousness. So sometimes we don't even know that we are healing. So-

Mimi M.:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Justine L.:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Mimi M.:
It's true. Well, this has been amazing. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, and I will put, anybody who's listening, in the notes will be her website as well, Dr. Lemos's website, and then also the link to her Thrive series.

Dr. Justine L.:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), great. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Mimi M.:
Each week, I will bring you different voices from the wellness community so that they can share how they help their clients heal. You will come away with tips and strategies to help you get your life back. Thank you so much for coming on, and I am so happy you are here. Subscribe now and tune in next week. If you want to learn how I detox and you want to check out my Detox for Lyme checklist, go to lyme360.com/checklist. You can also join our community at Lyme 360 Warriors on Facebook, and let's heal together. Thank you.