The Lyme 360 Podcast: Heal+
The Lyme 360 Podcast: Heal+
EP 105: A New Lyme Book About the Connection Between Lyme and Autoimmune Disease
Why is Lyme disease so difficult to subside? Infections and inflammation seem to always arise and cause a setback? Is the link between our immune system and Lyme crucial to healing?
Daisy Ilchovska is a fellow Lyme warrior, nutritionist, and expert in the link between autoimmune diseases and Lyme. She recently released her book, Lyme in the Limelight, in an effort to raise awareness of the connection and help more Lyme warriors return to a healthy state.
Please tune in to this week’s episode all about the link between autoimmune disease and Lyme, Daisy’s personal journey and lessons learned, as well as more on her new book Lyme in the Limelight (now available for purchase on her website and Amazon).
Mimi:
Welcome to the Lyme 360 podcast for all things related to Lyme disease and other chronic illnesses. I'm Mimi MacLean, mom of five, founder of Lyme 360 and a fellow Lyme Warrior. Tune in each week to hear from doctors, health practitioners, and experts to learn about their treatments, struggles and triumphs to help you on your healing journey.
Mimi:
I'm here to heal with you.
Mimi:
Today we have on Daisy Ilchovska and she is the founder of Optimal Health Nutrition. Daisy is a fellow Lyme Warrior that specializes in Lyme disease in addition to autoimmune diseases.
Mimi:
Daisy recently launched a book, "Lyme in the Limelight" which is aiming to raise awareness about the link between Lyme disease and autoimmunity.
Mimi:
If you have not subscribed to Lyme 360, please go to lyme360.com to get onto our newsletter, and also please hit subscribe to this. This will really help us out. And while you're at lyme360.com, there is a great shopping page of products that I have used and vetted, and it will help us fund this Lyme 360 podcast.
Mimi:
Daisy, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. Just to get you started, I'm excited. Congratulations for your new book that just came out, "Lyme in the Limelight." That's exciting and I'd love to hear more about that. I know you are also a chronic Lyme warrior and your patients now you'd like to help through nutrition. Most of your patients are Lyme sufferers as well, right? Correct?
Daisy:
Yes, Mimi. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me today and sharing some details about my upcoming book. So "Lyme in the Limelight" is aiming to raise awareness of Lyme disease as an autoimmune disease.
Daisy:
So we all know that Lyme disease can be a very, very persistent bacterial infection that affects multiple systems within the body. But I having gone through it myself, as you mentioned, I wasn't so much aware that Lyme disease has got a very serious autoimmune element to it.
Daisy:
And it can trigger several types of autoimmunity, which can appear alongside whatever the system bacteria infection is doing.
Daisy:
So, "Lyme in the Limelight" is aiming to shed more light on this new information. I've also included my story of dealing with Lyme disease. And then in the final part of the book, I also give you advice in terms of diet and supplements, and lifestyle changes that you can implement to manage Lyme disease triggered autoimmunity.
Mimi:
Oh, that's great. Thank you. And congratulations to the book. Were you a nutrition coach before you had Lyme or did your Lyme caused you to become one?
Daisy:
So I was just re qualifying to become a nutritional therapist when the Lyme disease started, I fell in love with nutritional therapy because it helped me manage three autoimmune conditions that I had previously.
Daisy:
I completely got off six medications and I thought, oh my goodness, this is functional medicine, nutritional therapy is amazing. And then I got almost... I was at the point, whereas I was finishing my master's degree and having my research published and starting to see some clients that the Lyme disease started.
Daisy:
So I'm really grateful that I had already that knowledge and experience about autoimmunity elements, and that led me to try and investigate a bit further that link about autoimmunity and Lyme disease.
Mimi:
Now, I have a question because I often debate this with other guests because I feel like there's some people who believe Lyme is something that you get and you can get rid of and then it's gone.
Mimi:
Then there're others who believe that it's autoimmunity or it's one of those things where it's kind of like EBV or mono where you keep it at bay it's always a part of you and depending on your lifestyle and your stress and circumstances, it can come and go and wane.
Mimi:
I have my opinion, but I was curious to see what your opinion was.
Daisy:
So I think that Chronic Lyme Disease is really, really hard to eradicate, Acute Lyme Disease maybe, but we know that a lot of cases get missed because of testing issues. I think the doctors here in...I'm not sure about the US, but here in the UK, they're not very familiar with that illness.
Daisy:
They always look out for the rash and they wouldn't even send you off for testing. So I think acute stage, you may be able to eradicate the disease.
Daisy:
I think at chronic stage, you have to obviously try and lower the bacterial load and try and kind of moderate your immune system and reduce other core factors like microbes and the illness modulate the immune system, but I don't think it's always possible to eradicate the bacteria, but you can certainly get well and have minimal symptoms.
Daisy:
I don't think people that have had Lyme disease for 10 years, they can completely eradicate it. I don't want this to sound negative or disempowering, but I think sometimes this is the reality. And I said, you can get, well, you have to do about 300 things at the same time.
Daisy:
We know all know about that. I've had clients where they minimize all the symptoms and they felt great and they have been relapses down the line. So it's one of those things, which I think is really hard to eradicate, but then there is so much that we don't know.
Daisy:
It could be depending on again, whether you've developed that ultra immunity, it could be depending on the strain of the BIA that you've picked up. And we know there's probably about a hundred strains of them, all different in different parts of the world and things like that.
Daisy:
So there are a lot of question marks, but from personal experience and from experiences working with Lyme disease clients, I think chronic stage really hard to eradicate probably impossible, but you can get well.
Mimi:
Yeah, I think so too. And I think, but then it empowers you to make sure you kind of stay the course and keep take care of yourself. Right. Because I find, if I'm, I'm good and I feel great if I kind of let myself eat the wrong things for a little bit or stay up late or do the things that I'm not supposed to be doing, you might have a wider band of what you can get away with,but at some point, your body's like, no, and it kind of comes back like your symptoms creep back.
Mimi:
Then there's another way I think to look at it too, or what one of my doctors had suggested once about how, when you have chronic Lyme, you have to think of it as almost like termites that even if you get rid of your termites in your house, they leave damage.
Mimi:
So you're left cleaning up the damage of the Lyme that, so a lot of the issues you may have... might not be Lyme anymore. It just might be the damage that the Lyme and the co-factors have done to your body that you're dealing with.
Daisy:
Oh, absolutely. And you know, autoimmunity is one of these elements. So as they say, you have to deal with the three I's in Lyme disease, the infection itself, and many people just over focus on the infection, the inflammation and the immune dysregulation.
Daisy:
Don't just focus on the infection. There could be all these other... few things that are going on that you could be trying to manage alongside it. Or maybe the infection is gone. You've been one of the lucky ones, but it's the autoimmune, it's the inflammation, once you start autoimmune process in the body, they don't just stop even when the trigger is gone. So you have to do all these other things to more like the immune system.
Mimi:
One of my doctors, and I don't know if you do this with your patients, they really kind of look at your mitochondria and making sure that works. Because if your mitochondria doesn't work, you're not going to get better because the tools that you need, your body is like, that's, what's making you get better. I don't even know how to explain it cause I'm not a doctor.
Daisy:
Absolutely
Daisy:
The mitochondria, they're not only the energy powerhouse in the body and a lot of Chronic Lyme Disease sufferers struggle with system fatigue, but actually the mitochondria powers part of the immune system. And that's why one of the first thing that the Lyme bacteria does when I was doing the research for the book is actually goes off and it disables the mitochondria.
Daisy:
So you can more easily invade the immune system, but also the mitochondria are so sensitive to toxins. A lot of people with Lyme disease accumulate a lot of toxins. There's always what I called in the book' 'related and complicated' whether it's microtoxin illness, whether it's heavy metals, these conditions need to be looked at in conjunction with the Lyme disease treatments in terms of mitochondrial health.
Daisy:
And in terms of diet, intermittent fasting can be fantastic for mitochondrial health, but you can't jump into intermittent fasting. For example, if you blood sugar levels are fluctuating and very often with Lyme disease, you get these really low blood sugar levels or hypoglycemia, which kind of need to be managed.
Mimi:
What length of intermittent fasting do you typically recommend? Like is it days? Is it 16 hours?
Daisy:
It's usually the 16 hour ones. I think the longer ones can be a bit trickier and you can, you can build up to it. And I think women because of fluctuating hormones find it harder to intermittent fast.
Daisy:
It's more difficult during particular times of the month as well. But doing something like earlier dinner, obviously fasting overnight and a bit later breakfast, this is a good starting point.
Daisy:
As long as your blood sugar level's not fluctuating too much because that can cause a bit of stress on the body
Mimi:
Then what do you typically with your clients, do you do tests or how do you determine if their mitochondria is working or if they have Lyme or do you typically do test or do you work just hand in hand with their doctors?
Daisy:
I do both. We do carry out quite a lot of testing. So just to search online testing, cause we can spend the whole podcast just talking about Lyme disease testing. But what I found really, really useful for me is actually to use dark blood analysis or dark field micro based testing.
Daisy:
And I'm very lucky that we work with the lab in Hungry, in Europe. They don't rely on the immune system response to the bacteria, which sometimes can be post negative. Not some sometimes in huge percentage of cases.
Daisy:
It literally examines your blood for the [inaudible 00:09:54] examines your blood for the most common co-infection sub to five core infections. So I very often run this test with Lyme disease clients.
Mimi:
Is that live blood analysis? Is that the same thing?
Daisy:
Called dog blood analysis. So I mean, I do think there's a live element because we need to get the blood to the lab within 24 hours. I have had the live blood analysis myself in a clinic in Germany where it was being treated because I had about half a dozen false negative tests, including the more reliable army lab tests.
Daisy:
And that's where they found the material. But now I use this dog blood analysis to identify whether the clients are still struggling with Lyme disease. And it's really educational actually working with the lab.
Daisy:
They've been doing research for the last 25 years. They had a massive grant from the European union. So they have been studying Lyme disease for a long, long time. And I was speaking to one of the scientists of the lab and I was like, how do you pick it up?
Daisy:
You know, the bacteria could be buried in tissue.
Daisy:
You know, it could be kind of in biofilms, how do you pick it up? And they've basically trained the computer's AI to pick up the bacteria. And he said, Did you know that in acute phase you can have up to, I think he said hundred thousand spiral keys in 10 milliliters of blood. At some point I personally felt full of it.
Daisy:
You know, I felt there was more brilliant than there was Daisy. And that kind of explains why a lot of people just feel like their bodies have been totally abducted by the bacteria.
Mimi:
You're right. You feel like an aliens kind of moved in.
Daisy:
But we also do. I do a lot of testing for microtoxin actually, if there are microtoxins I start there, I don't even touch the Lyme disease because, things like ritoxin, after toxin, they can have much, much greater effect on the immune system than the Lyme disease ever will.
Daisy:
And then you get this overlap of symptoms. So I do use a lot of microtoxin testing. We actually use two labs in the US. We send, send over the samples to the US, to you guys. We do stool testing, gut testing, nutritional deficiency testing, hormonal testing, thyroid testing, because of course Lyme disease can affect so, so many things. So we do, do it in any case testing is needed.
Mimi:
Yeah, no, there's a lot of testing. What ultimately got you better.
Daisy:
I did full body hyperthermia and two weeks worth of four different IV antibiotics so that I think kind of lowered the bacterial load, but then I almost felt worse than when I got into the hospital. So I think it was these protocols for the modulation of the immune system that I talk in the book and I kind of then realized that I've got loads of microtoxins because I was having some serious nervous system symptoms that weren't going away.
Daisy:
And I was doing a lot of meditation and supplements like Reveritrol, to cross the blood-brain barrier to try and kind of heal my nervous system, but I wasn't just getting better. And then I started getting rid of the microtoxin and that kind of was one of the final bits, but I'd say to eradicate the bacteria, the hypothermia and the antibiotics worked for me, I did things like plasma filters as well to filter my blood plasma.
Daisy:
But then it's the actual autoimmune element that really, really helped me. That may be because I already had three autoimmune conditions that were well managed when the Lyme disease hit, but the Lyme disease kind of fast track everything. And literally I went from twitching finger to non epileptic seizure in two months.
Mimi:
Wow.
Daisy:
So it was quite severe in my case, but I think it's that autoimmunity element.
Mimi:
Right? So I think I know the answer, but I'm going to ask it anyway. So if someone were to call you a friend and say, "Hey, what can I do right now to start the process of healing while I'm waiting for my lab results?
Mimi:
Or I'm waiting to see a doctor or I don't have the money to go see a doctor that's not covered by insurance. Is there anything I can do from home right now?" What would you recommend?
Daisy:
Oh, there are tons of things. Make sure that you home is as toxin free as possible. Even if you're doing something simple, like taking off your shoes at the door and ventilating opening your windows before you go to bed, fresh air, we know about the air quality in our homes it's much, much worse than the outside to try and get some fresh air in.
Daisy:
Try and tweak your diet. I talk a lot about diet, but considering Lyme disease can trigger all immunity and diet is so hugely important in autoimmunity trying to exclude things like gluten, like cows dairy. It can have a really, really profound effect. Ultimately 80% of your immune system is in your gut.
Daisy:
And if you are kind of impacting gut health by changing your diet, that could be a huge win. Also doing simple things, you know, instead of watching extra shows on Netflix, try and do a bit of meditation, a bit of breathing exercises, anything that makes you relax a bit because with Lyme disease, there is a lot of stress at a physiological level.
Daisy:
So relating to your biology, there is a lot of stress at the psychological level, with treatment uncertainty, and test uncertainty. "What's going to happen to me, am I going to get disabled?" You know, things like loss of relationships and income that happens so often.
Daisy:
So anything that helps calm you down. So all these things, although they seem insignificant are really the building blocks for you to get better. A lot of people with Lyme disease think there is one silver bullet. There isn't.
Daisy:
Yeah. I have a lot of clients that literally spend all their time on Lyme disease forums, looking for that silver bullet and chopping and changing treatments. There isn't, there is sort of a pyramid that I say to clients of about a hundred things that you have to build up and work on and do consistently to try and get better. But there is quite a lot to do at home.
Daisy:
You know, get rid of plastics, slowly plastics in the kitchen, things like xenoestrogens in plastics can trigger old immunity. You know, they can impact detoxification, even if it's a matter of start reusing old glass jars and things like that instead of plastics to store food. So yeah, there is quite a bit you can do.
Mimi:
No, it's true. But I do think, I know it's not a magic bullet, but I do feel like food and that's where, you know, you come in because of your nutritional background, I do feel like food is kind of like that magic bullet.
Mimi:
I don't know anybody that's gotten better without having to change their diet. That's the common thread. I think between everybody. Everybody's used different therapies. If it's hypothermia, if it's antibiotics, if it's SOT therapy, whatever it is, but everybody has changed their diet.
Daisy:
Yeah. That, that is absolutely essential. It's really, really, especially the Western diet. It's not only lack of nutritious foods it is excess refining carbohydrates, it's toxins and herbicides in food. You know, they all make things really, really complicated. You do need to tweak that.
Daisy:
And I talk a lot in the book, I've got a whole chapter about adapted autoimmune, paleo style diet and how that may be one of the best options for people that are dealing with Lyme disease, considering the autoimmune element.
Mimi:
But I've heard sometimes where having too much protein like the Lyme likes the protein, is that true where, if you have too much, it's almost like it's feeding it?
Daisy:
As far as I'm aware, Lyme disease feeds on things like manganese.
Mimi:
What's manganese?
Daisy:
Manganese, it's a mineral in the body. So Lyme disease is so weird in a way, because most bacteria, say bacteria living in your gut, they all feeds on iron, but for some reason, and it's a bit of a scientific mystery Lyme disease feeds on manganese. Obviously it loves the mild sheet around the nerves.
Daisy:
And that's why you get these kind of neuropathy nervous system symptoms. I'm not sure about the link with protein, but if this was your plates, the protein should... And complete proteins and things like meat, eggs, quinoa, tofu should cover at least quarter of the plate at each meal.
Daisy:
So breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but protein is needed. You need these adequate amount of protein. Whenever there is inflammation going on, and you do have with Lyme disease, quite a lot of inflammation, you produce neurotransmitters like brain messengers from some of these types of protein. Your liver needs protein for one of the detoxification pathways. We know that everything goes through the liver. Otherwise you get these quite severe, Herxheimer reactions that happen with Lyme disease. So you do need adequate amount of complete protein. I think it's really, really difficult to do the Lyme diet. For example, if you are vegan, veggies always a good idea, but I think eating complete protein of very diet, having a very, very deity, can be very difficult when your vegan.
Mimi:
Yeah. You also need the fish oils, right? That's really important to have.
Daisy:
Absolutely. Especially. So fish oils contain these fatty acids called EPA and DHA, especially DHAs really, really important for nervous system health. I get some of my clients with more neurological symptoms take really high doses DHA in addition to eating things like fatty fish, like mackerel and salmon.
Mimi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). The other thing I learned late through the process, it took me a couple years and then I'm like, no one really talks about it that much is the lack of making sure you put minerals like in your water and no one again ever talks about it. But then once, like I learned it, I'm like, okay, now I hear about it more.
Mimi:
But like it took me a couple years before someone mentioned that to me, because I guess the Lyme depletes your body of the minerals and a lot of your side effects are caused by the depleted minerals.
Mimi:
So all you have to do is get like ionic minerals or some kind of minerals that you put in your water.
Daisy:
Oh electrolytes, things like magnesium, obviously magnesium gets depleted with stress. Most people are really, really depleted in magnesium, even healthy people because of slow depletion and, you get magnesium from vegetables. And if there isn't the magnesium in the soil, we couldn't just... Can't get it from food. So honestly, magnesium can be one of the best supplements for detoxification. And for Herxheimer reactions, just taking extra electrolytes that contain things like magnesium and potassium.
Mimi:
It's another low hanging fruit that someone can buy on Amazon. Right? And just put that in your water or your tea.
Daisy:
I, for example, if you're having some like infrared saunas, which had one this morning can be really good for detoxification repleting these electrolytes straight out though that can be a fantastic way. And they can also sometimes help with fatigue. I think they are an underrated, relatively inexpensive supplement.
Mimi:
So is there anything that we haven't covered yet that you think that you would like to cover?
Daisy:
Judging from, my clinical experience and my own personal experience, one of the most underrated things is the attitude you approach the disease can sometimes be as important as the treatments. You have to believe that you can get better. You have to believe that you are an active participant in your health journey.
Daisy:
Unfortunately, with Lyme disease, there was nobody that's coming to save. You kind of have to do all the hard work yourself by actually feeling strong morally, and feeling empowered and positive.
Daisy:
Even when you're going through difficult times, this is a way that you communicate to your immune system, which can then help you with the Lyme disease treatment. You know, I know it's probably one of the most difficult diseases to live with and treat, but don't let your biology become your biography. Just try and feel positive and empowered.
Mimi:
No, it's true. Like make sure that, you know you're on a journey for a reason and learn what that journey's about, right. Not be angry about it.
Daisy:
Absolutely. And I think I've got, this is one of the last things I've put in the book. I think Lyme disease that has actually ultimately made me a better person. I was type A personality with no boundaries, absolutely overworked.
Daisy:
And I think a bit like autoimmunity itself, You have to look, look at the deeper messages. Once I came out at the other end, it's those deeper messages that made me realize that, the journey happened for a reason and maybe that reason was so that I can help others, but try and find meaning.
Daisy:
I know at the beginning, a lot of people are angry and they have the "Why me?" Attitude. And I did have that quite a lot, but, I managed that with meditation and journaling actually journaling, writing down my experiences really, really helped me. So try and find some meaning in all that.
Mimi:
Daisy, this has been amazing and good luck with your book "Lyme in the Limelight." I'll have the link in the show notes below, but you could also get it at Amazon and they can find you at...
Daisy:
So the website is called OptimalHealthNutritions.co.UK.
Mimi:
Okay. Cause you're in the UK. Okay, perfect. Thank you so much. And I appreciate your time. T.
Daisy:
Thank you so much Mimi, thank you.
Mimi:
Each week I will bring you different voices from the wellness community so that they can share how they help their clients heal. You will come away with tips and strategies to help you get your life back.
Mimi:
Thank you so much for coming on and I am so happy. You are here. Subscribe now and tune in next week. If you want to learn how I detox and you want to check out my detox for Lyme checklist, go to Lyme360.com/detoxchecklist. You can also join our community at Lyme 360 Warriors on Facebook and let's heal together. Thank you.